So, do you think Robert Jordan actually believed that there were some seductresses out there who had an itemized list of every way you can touch or kiss someone? Or is this as much of a fantasy as the One Power and women having to get naked every time they go through a portal?
Welcome back to Reading The Wheel of Time. This week covers Chapters 26 and 27 of The Fires of Heaven, in which Siuan, Leane, Min, and Logain finally find the rest of the Aes Sedai, and Siuan has to put her plan in motion without anyone knowing that it’s a plan, or that she’s affecting anything, or anyone, at all. You have to admire Siuan. She’s good at what she does, and she never quits.
Chapter 26 opens with Min watching Logain as they ride west and south of Lugard, following the directions Siuan claims to have discovered. Logain has been slowly fading, his shoulder drooping and will flagging until has to be prodded and guided in order to keep him moving at all. Still, that blue and gold halo continues to flicker around his head, perplexing Min. Leane drops back to lay a hand on Logain’s arm and encourage him, but Min remarks that she’d have more luck with a dead man, and suggests that she try kissing him instead. Leane gives her an icy look, but Min was never as intimidated by her as she was by Siuan, and the flirting lessons have made that even more true.
How could you be intimidated by a woman who had told you in dead seriousness that there were one hundred and seven different kisses, and ninety-three ways to touch a man’s face with your hand? Leane actually seemed to believe these things.
Min can’t tell if Leane really has feelings for Logain or if she’s merely trying to keep him going; she and Siuan seem to have come to some sort of agreement where Siuan talks to all the women they encounter and Leane handles all the men. Siuan drops back to ask Min if she’s viewed Logain today, and Min answers that it is still the same. Siuan still doesn’t seem to understand that what Min sees is true—even if she hadn’t seen the halo again since Tar Valon, she would still have wagered that he would make a miraculous recovery. She knows that he is destined for glory, just as she knew the first time she saw Rand al’Thor that she would fall in love with him, and that she would have to share him with two other women.
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Siuan tells Min off for her tone, and Min wishes she could sound at least a little sarcastic and not so sincere when she promises to try not to be so sulky. But Siuan has that effect on people, even now. Leane asks if it’s much farther, expressing concern for Logain, and Siuan tells her, sounding irritated, that it shouldn’t be, as long as the last directions she got were right.
Not much, if those last directions I had are right.” Siuan sounded irritated. She had asked questions at that last village, two days ago—not letting Min hear, of course; Logain had showed no interest—and she did not like to be reminded of them. Min could not understand why. Siuan could hardly expect Elaida to be behind them.
They continue on, Min trying to decide where exactly she thinks they are, geographically, since they left any kind of well-traveled path some time ago, and worrying that Siuan might be lying about knowing where to go. Then, suddenly they come upon a village. Min notes something odd about it, how it seems newly built, and how there are too many women and not enough children, then suddenly realizes that she is seeing auras flickering about most heads, and realizes that they are Aes Sedai and Warders, along with some who must be White Tower servants and their kids. Siuan has found her gathering.
They ride in, and Min is put off by the odd and silent stares they get. Siuan stops in front of the town inn and has Min bring Logain in. Inside is a bustle of activity, women working on documents or sending Warders and servants scurrying off on errands, and the travelers are met by four Aes Sedai, Sheriam, Carlinya, Myrelle, and Anaiya. Min notes rays of silver and blue flashing around Sheriam’s head, as well as a soft golden light. She addresses Min rather than the others, asking why she brought Logain, and how she found them. Carlinya observes that it would have been better if Logain had died, and Min sees an image of a drawn raven beside her, perhaps a tattoo. As the others join in, demanding answers, Min tells them to ask Siuan or Leane, not her, shocking everyone.
Myrelle observes that stilling could have this affect, while Sheriam wonders if someone might have found women who look similar to try to trick them for some reason. Leane suggests they quiz them, make them answer questions only Siuan and Leane would know, and the Aes Sedai begin grilling the two about moments from their lives as novices and Accepted. Min is amazed at some of the stories of pranks and rule-breaking. Eventually the Aes Sedai determine that they are, in fact, Siuan and Leane. Carlinya wonders what to do with them.
Siuan was dark-faced—Leane had seemed amused if anything at her recounted girlhood misdeeds and penalties, but Siuan had not liked the telling one bit—yet in contrast to her near-glare, her voice was only a little tight. “You wanted to know how we found you. I made contact with one of my agents who also works for the Blue, and she told me of Sallie Daera.
Min doesn’t understand about Sallie Daera, but she realizes that Siuan has let them know that she still has access to the eyes-and-ears network of the Blue Ajah. Leane and Siuan are taken into another room, while Min is instructed to wait with Logain at an empty table. Min considers that, if any of the other Aes Sedai knew about her viewings, that she might become trapped again, just as she was by Siuan in the White Tower.
Helping Siuan find this gathering, helping bring Aes Sedai to Rand’s Aiel, was all very well and important, but she still had a personal goal. Making a man who had never looked at her twice fall in love with her before he went mad. Maybe she was as mad as he was fated to be. “Then we’ll make a matched pair,” she muttered to herself.
A novice comes by—carefully avoiding even glancing at Logain—to ask if Min wants something to eat, and informs her that she is in Salidar, in Altara. Where better to hide than where Aes Sedai would never be looked for? An Accepted Min recognizes, Faolain, complains that they should not have to hide, that it’s Siuan’s fault, and that she didn’t believe that Siuan helped Mazrim Taim escape, but if she brought Logain to Salidar, perhaps she did after all. Then an Aes Sedai named Edesina arrives and sends the two away; Min sees a silvery collar around the woman’s neck, which then seems to shatter. Min doesn’t like having viewings connected to the Seanchan, but she’s glad to see that Edesina will escape somehow.
Edesina examines Logain, telling Min that the gentling has stopped him from wanting to live, and that there is nothing she can do. As Min and Logain are ignored by the rest of the Aes Sedai, she can only hope that Siuan and Leane are finding a warmer reception.
And they are, at least in the literal sense. Siuan and Leane are sitting across from the four Aes Sedai, as well as Morvrin and Beonin, in a room that is quite warm despite the open window; Siuan tells herself that she is past being jealous of the other women’s ability to channel, but she does envy their ability not to sweat. She tells the Aes Sedai that they are rudderless, that all the bustle of activity is no more than a show to fool the Warders. She doubts the Gaidin are fooled, but she herself certainly is not. They know that Elaida will mismanage Rand, that she’ll probably panic and gentle him before Tarmon Gai’don arrives, and that the Tower is at its weakest when it should be at its strongest. And yet all the Aes Sedai here are doing is “twiddling [their] thumbs and blowing bubbles.”
Anaiya asks Leane if she agrees with Siuan, and Leane temporizes, saying that she agrees about Elaida and the danger, but that she is sure that they have worked very hard to gather all the exiled sisters to them and to figure out what to do about Elaida. Sheriam sniffs, thinking about how all the papers she saw were about planning the settlement and none were reports about Elaida or the Tower; all it would take was one Blue getting captured and put to the question and Elaida would know exactly where to find them.
Carlinya, a White, tells them coolly that they are not the Amyrlin and Keeper any longer, or even Aes Sedai. Some of the others look embarrassed, not liking to be reminded of stilling at the best of times, and no doubt thinking it harsh to bring it up now, but Carlinya continues to say that they do not believe the charges against the two, or they would not have left the Tower, but that they cannot assume their old places among the Aes Sedai. Sheriam adds that the letter of the law was followed, but no the spirit, and that the charges were so thin that they should have been laughed away.
“Not the charge that she knew of Rand al’Thor and conspired to hide him from the Tower,” Carlinya broke in sharply.
Sheriam nodded. “But be that as it may, even that was not sufficient for the penalty given. Nor should you have been tried in secret, without even a chance to defend yourself. Never fear that we will turn our backs on you. We will see that you both are cared for.”
Leane thanks them, but Siuan points out that they do not have the Aes Sedai head of the Blue network here, that they’ve left the agents sending their reports to the Tower. She suggests that she could arrange things so that both the Blue network and the one she had as Amyrlin could be sending their reports to the Aes Sedai at Salidar instead, and sending messages to the Tower that contain what they want Elaida to believe.
Leane adds, more diffidently, that she could also put them in touch with agents she had as Keeper within Tar Valon. The others are surprised to learn she had such a thing, and Leane admits that she always thought it was foolish that they paid so much attention to distant cities and so little to their own.
Morvrin asks, sharply, why they should let Siuan do what she wants. She has been stilled and is no longer Aes Sedai. If they want the names, they will give them.
Leane shivered visibly, but Siuan’s chair creaked as she stiffened her back. “I know that I am not Amyrlin anymore. Do you think I don’t know I was stilled? My face is changed, but not what is inside. Everything I ever knew is still in my head. Use it! For the love of the Light, use me!” She took a deep breath to calm herself—Burn me if I let them shove me aside to rot!—
Myrelle observes that Siuan has a young woman’s temper to go with her young woman’s face, but there is sympathy in her eyes as she assures Siuan that what she knows will be of great use, that no one wants her to feel useless. But Siuan doesn’t want that sympathy, and brings up Logain instead. She tells them of the plan she has devised, to have Logain reveal to the Tower, or even the world, that he was set up as a false Dragon by the Red Ajah. She tells them that the Reds found him in Ghealdan a year before he revealed himself, but instead of bringing him to the Tower to be gentled, they planted the idea in his head of claiming to be the Dragon Reborn.
“He does not know who Leane and I are. He talked with us sometimes on the journey here, late at night when Min was sleeping and he could not rest. He said nothing before because he thinks the entire Tower was behind it, but he knows that it was Red sisters who shielded him and talked to him of the Dragon Reborn.”
The Aes Sedai ask why the Reds would do such a thing, and Siuan claims that Logain did not know. Leane adds that they aren’t suggesting that the Reds had anything to do with Mazrim Taim, and that Elaida will be able to answer their questions.
Siuan watches them mull it over, thinking again about the benefits of being able to lie, and certain that Logain will fulfill his part of the plan—she hasn’t told him about it yet, but she’s certain that he will do it, now that he’s trapped amongst Aes Sedai again. This is his only chance at revenge, though it will only be over the Red Ajah, not all the Aes Sedai. And she knows he will live long enough because of Min’s vision. Finally Sheriam declares that this changes things, that they cannot possibly follow an Amyrlin who would do such a thing.
“Follow her!” Siuan exclaimed, for the first time truly startled. “You were actually considering going back to kiss Elaida’s ring? Knowing what she has done, and will do?” Leane quivered in her seat as if she wanted to say a few choice words herself, but they had agreed that Siuan was to be the one to lose her temper.
Sheriam and Myrelle look abashed, but the others do not, and Carlinya sternly reminds them that the Tower must be whole and strong, now that the Dragon has been Reborn and the Last Battle is coming.
Anaiya agrees, saying that it isn’t necessary to like the Amyrlin Seat. She admits that she never liked Elaida but then she never liked Siuan, who has “a file for a tongue” and who “pushed sisters where [she] wanted and only seldom explained why.”
Siuan says that she will try to smooth her tongue, all the time thinking how ridiculous it is for Anaiya to expect the Amyrlin to treat every sister like a childhood friend. The others discuss how they cannot go back to Elaida now, and all who are with her save the Reds can probably be approached and negotiated with. They also decide that they will not take the eyes-and-ears network away from Siuan, who can’t hold back a relieved sigh.
“Thank you, Aes Sedai,” she said in the meekest tone she could find. To call them that pained her; it was another break, another reminder of what she was not any longer. “I will try to give good service.” Myrelle did not have to nod in such a satisfied way. Siuan ignored a small voice that said she would have done as much or more in Myrelle’s place.
Deftly and respectfully, Leane offers a new suggestion. She points out that, to the eyes of the world this group of Aes Sedai will only look like a group of dissidents, while Elaida commands the respect of the Amyrlin title. She suggests that they elect a new Hall of the Tower and select an Amyrlin. That way they can present to the world “the true White Tower, in exile, and Elaida as a usurper.” With Logain’s accusations added on, the world will surely support their Amyrlin Seat. There is clear interest in this idea, with only Sheriam offering the objection that this will mean that the Tower is truly broken. Siuan snaps at her that it already is, and then regrets it.
This was supposed to be purely Leane’s notion. She herself had a reputation as a deft manipulator, and they could well be suspicious of anything she proposed. That was why she had begun by scathing them; they would not have believed her if she had begun with mild words. She would come at them as if she still thought herself Amyrlin, and let them put her in her place. By comparison, Leane would seem more cooperative, only offering the little she could, and they would be more likely to listen to her. Doing her own part had not been difficult—until it came to pleading; then she had wanted to hang them all in the sun to dry. Sitting here, doing nothing!
She thinks that she didn’t need to be so careful; they think she is broken, and although it’s a painful accommodation to make, Siuan knows that she must play that part, that they will accept her only on their terms.
The Aes Sedai discuss the prospect a little further, obliquely suggesting each of themselves, or at least their Ajah, as best fit for the job. Morvrin suggests Sheriam, though the former Mistress of Novices shakes her head, and promises that the Greens will all support her. Before this idea can build up too much steam, Siuan offers, as meekly as she can manage, the suggestion that their choice should not have been in the Tower the day she was disposed. That way no one could accuse her of choosing sides. Leane adds that she should be very strong in the Power, so that she can show all that the Tower stands for.
Siuan could have kicked her. That thought was supposed to wait a full day, to be tossed in once they actually began considering names. Between them, she and Leane knew enough of every sister to find some weakness, some doubt to be dangled subtly as to her fitness for stole and staff. She would rather wade naked through a school of silverpike than have these women realize that she was trying to manipulate them.
But no one seems to notice that, and Sheriam praises Siuan for her suggestion. They all agree that strength in the Power is important too, and that this will come with strength of will as well, which the new Amyrlin will certainly need. Siuan is pleased and confident that, when the time comes, she can bring them around to her point of view that they should choose not a strong-willed woman, but one who can be guided by them. And Siuan, secretly, will guide both. She and Moiraine have worked too hard to find and guide Rand al’Thor to “risk the rest of it being bungled by someone else.”
Respectfully she asks if she may offer another suggestion, and forces herself to wait for Sheriam to nod for her to continue. Siuan explains that she heard many rumors about Rand al’Thor and she believes that she has reasoned out where he went—the Aiel Waste. She explains that Gitara Moroso believed that some Aiel could channel, and that when Siuan was an Accepted Gitara had her read old books about them. In one, she learned that the Aiel sometimes call themselves the People of the Dragon. What’s more, the Prophecies said that the Stone of Tear would never fall until the People of the Dragon came, and it’s been confirmed that there were Aiel in the taking of the Stone.
The others find this a rather thin chance, but after some discussion it’s agreed that they will send two Green sisters (Myrelle is irritated it can’t be her) and choose Kiruna Nachiman and Bera Harkin, who have seven Warders between them. Talk turns to sending Siuan and Leane to rest, although Siuan assures them that she is not weak anymore from her stilling. Just then there is a knock and Arinvar, Sheriam’s Warder, comes in to report that there are twenty-odd riders approaching from the east. The Aes Sedai are just discussing the best way to either capture or kill them, to keep the Aes Sedai presence a secret, when another Warder, Nuhel, appears. He winks at Myrelle before addressing the group to report that most of the riders have stopped, but one is coming on alone, and he has been recognized as Gareth Bryne.
Siuan feels herself go cold, and is mentally kicking herself for asking directions at that one village. She tries to get hold of herself, but all she manages to do is say exactly the wrong thing, telling the Aes Sedai that they send him away or kill him. They realize that Siuan and Leane know exactly why he’s here and don’t want to confront him, to the point where they would like the Aes Sedai to kill him for them.
“There do be few great captains living.” Nuhel marked them off on gauntleted fingers. “Agelmar Jagad and Davram Bashere will no leave the Blight, I think, and Pedron Niall will surely no be of use to you. If Rodel Ituralde do be alive, he do be mired somewhere in what do remain of Arad Doman.” He raised his thick thumb. “And that do leave Gareth Bryne.”
“Do you think that we will need a great captain, then?” Sheriam asked quietly.
The Warders exchange glances, and then Arinvar replies that it is their decision. If they intend to return to the Tower they could use him; if they mean to wait for Elaida to send for them, then maybe not. Aniya remarks that Siuan is right. They have not fooled the Gaidin.
After a brief discussion of how to convince Bryne to side with them, the Aes Sedai tell the Warders to bring Bryne to them without saying anything to him. Once they are gone they turn their gazes back to Siuan and Leane, and Siuan realizes that she has no choice but to tell them the whole truth. Because if they catch even the smallest lie, they will know she can lie, and everything will be ruined.
Whew! I have to say, after recapping all of that, I might be as tired as Siuan and Leane must be from keeping up all that façade and manipulation. I ended up leaving in a lot of little quotes from this chapter’s narration, just because Siuan’s thoughts say so much in so few words. It’s one of Jordan’s great strengths as a writer: He’s really good at saying things without saying them, at giving you a lot to read in between the lines.
Recapping chapters that are mostly conversation can be a little tedious, but they are a lot of fun to analyze. Next week we will see Gareth Bryne observe how the Aes Sedai almost seem to have invented the Game of Houses, but we don’t need to wait for an outsider to interact with them—there is plenty of that manipulation and maneuvering for power in this one interview alone. And in fact, seeing the Aes Sedai interact amongst themselves provides an even clearer view of how their society is structured, especially when it comes to its extremely hierarchical nature.
I say “amongst themselves” because while Sheriam and the rest might not consider Siuan and Leane to be Aes Sedai anymore, I certainly do. There’s a lot to explore in the series about the dynamic between channelers and non-channelers, but while so far I’ve focused mostly on the prejudice experienced by channelers and the ways that prejudice comments (sometimes well, sometimes poorly) on sexism in our world, right now I’m pretty much on the side of those who think the Aes Sedai are puffed up, self-important jerks. The way Sheriam and the others are more concerned with Siuan and Leane’s lack of channeling ability than what they have done—either positive or negative—really irks me. It’s like I’m watching my most hated moment in X-Men 3: The Last Stand when Magneto abandons Mystique after she’s shot by the cure dart. I found it incredibly out of character for Magneto to reject her after part of herself was violently and unjustly torn away by those who would do the same to Magneto and all his fellow mutants. I could easily see him as being prejudiced against her in other ways, sidelining her from the fight in a sort of mutant-ableism, but not leaving a fallen comrade behind in the field, especially one he was close to.
On the other hand, it’s not out of character for the Aes Sedai; Siuan even has the thought that she would have acted similarly if she was in the others’ place. And as Aniya points out, there wasn’t a lot of closeness between the former Amyrlin and the rest of the Aes Sedai, despite the years they shared as novices and Accepted. Once again the discipline of the Tower shows its weak side: There are few bonds besides channeling and the duty that comes with it to hold the Aes Sedai together.
That being said, I do wonder if Siuan was more distant than former Amyrlins. It’s not that she didn’t see the value in kindness and connection—look at how she treated Laras when she came into the kitchen to secretly meet with Nynaeve—and she clearly had affection for her friends when they were training together. I wonder if she didn’t keep herself especially distant, if she wasn’t occasionally overly harsh with people, because she was working in secret with Moiraine. She wasn’t just focused on leading the White Tower, she was also devoting a lot of time and energy to the search for the Dragon, and she had to keep it absolutely secret at all costs. Perhaps if she hadn’t been she might have been a little bit more forthcoming when she gave commands to her daughters, or perhaps she wouldn’t have been quite so harsh with her tongue if she hadn’t had so much more pressure riding on her shoulders. It’s even possible she might not have wanted to be Amyrlin at all, though she was clearly always going to end up in a position of power.
In any case, the entire structure of the White Tower—its hierarchies, its function, and its purpose—are built upon a single flagstone: the ability to channel. An ability that is no more than a chance of birth, and one that is becoming much less strong and common in the population. The way a former channeler loses the will to live probably exacerbates this problem, but it was disheartening to learn how the Aes Sedai treat those who lose the ability to touch the True Source—women who burn themselves out in some accident or by studying ter’angreal—tucking them away somewhere or marrying them off like a medieval family’s inconvenient daughter. The suggestion that the only purpose a woman might find in family is a condescending one at best. It is a perfectly valid and good purpose, of course, but certainly not the only one open to a woman. Why couldn’t such a woman, one who has been educated and trained in the Tower, still have purpose amongst those who were her peers—who still are her peers, as far as I’m concerned?
Now, I said that the ability to channel is a “chance of birth” but of course, within the world of The Wheel of Time, that isn’t necessarily true. In this universe we know that the Pattern directs the lives of every human being, so technically the ability to channel or not channel is at least somewhat predestined. Perhaps this is the justification within the minds of the Aes Sedai for viewing themselves as (at least on some level) superior to non-channelers. It is certainly a justification for hierarchical thinking in general—the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and it chose you to be a peasant and me to be a Queen, as it were.
In a way, it makes me understand the Black Ajah a little better. Is it really surprising that they should feel a certain level of greed and desire for power, if this is the baseline for Aes Sedai thought? I’ve talked before about how the D&D alignment of lawful good doesn’t bear out in practice, unless one posits that the universe itself is inherently good and just. There’s that conversation that Moiraine and Perrin have in Chapter 33 of The Dragon Reborn, about the nature of the Pattern, as they follow Rand towards Tear and see the changes he leaves in his wake. Some things are good, like happily married people, but others were bad, like failed crops or a spree of murders. Perrin doesn’t understand how the Pattern could be so evil, comparing the bad events to a tool with no purpose. Moiraine answers;
“The Creator is good, Perrin. The Father of Lies is evil. The Pattern of Age, the Age Lace itself, is neither. The Pattern is what is. The Wheel of Time weaves all lives into the Pattern, all actions. A pattern that is all one color is no pattern. For the Pattern of an Age, good and ill are the warp and the woof.”
Given that, I don’t think one could go so far as to say they were “meant” to be a channeler, or “meant” to be above other people. Nevertheless, the Aes Sedai are very hierarchical in their thinking, as are most of the cultures we’ve gotten to know so far. It’s not surprising, given the mostly western, mostly medieval basis for the world’s construction. After all, hierarchy is built into a great deal of our own world’s thinking, even today. It’s sometimes religious, sometimes secular, but in all cases can result in a rigidity of thinking that the Aes Sedai are definitely displaying here. They have plenty of experience manipulating others, and yet they completely fall for everything Siuan and Leane have set up for them without ever even noticing how they’re being led about by the nose. Even Leane’s slip-up goes entirely unnoticed, and the two plant not just one but several new ideas in the Aes Sedai without breaking a sweat, figuratively anyway. One can only conclude, as Siuan does, that they aren’t on guard against the two because they see them as lesser now. They’re quick to see weakness, anger, and distress, but not keenness, judgment, or self-restraint. It’s kind of remarkable.
Speaking of sweat, I wonder what kind of channeling trick that is. Are the Aes Sedai using the One Power to cool their bodies? Or is it just a stopping of the sweat itself? Either way, I loved the detail, though I’m suspicious of Siuan’s claim that she doesn’t envy the women their ability to channel anymore. I think she was sweating under the pressure too, not just the heat.
There is still a great deal of unfair prejudice against the Aes Sedai and the One Power, stoked by the taint on saidin, and I imagine also by the machinations of Darkfriends over the years after the Breaking. But the Aes Sedai’s relative isolation keeps them disconnected from “ordinary” people; one of the things that makes Moiraine both a more effective Aes Sedai and a more likeable character is how much time she spends out in the world. When she speaks of things like the greater good and making hard choices, it rings much purer than when someone like Elaida does. And I have to wonder if this wasn’t one of the functions of the Da’shain Aiel, to act as a sort of bridge between channelers and non-channelers, keeping the two worlds connected and the ambition of the Aes Sedai somewhat grounded. The Warders are primarily soldiers, and can’t provide that in the same way that the Aiel, with their kindness, connection to peace and the Earth, and obedience to the Way of the Leaf, could. It’s a fascinating thought.
And I keep forgetting about Mazrim Taim! There are so many rumors flurrying about that I can’t remember who is actually responsible for his escape. Darkfriends, I think. Anyway, I think Siuan’s plan to say that the Reds encouraged and helped Logain in declaring himself as the Dragon is a smart move, and there’s a really nice amount of justice in it, considering that Elaida’s been claiming that Siuan and Leane helped Mazrim Taim escape… they’ve been blaming her for Logain’s escape too. Turn about is fair play, Elaida, and this is what you get when you make up lies in order to get people to stage a coup. Any justification she had in being suspicious of Siuan (she was going behind the Tower’s back, after all, and manipulating them for her own ends, even if they were good ones) but she had to lie and sneak around in order to usurp Siuan, rather than following proper Tower precedent, which she knew very well wouldn’t have gotten her the result she wanted.
It’s interesting to see Sheriam in a leadership role here. Of all the Aes Sedai we’ve gotten to know, she’s the one I’m least certain how I feel about. Maybe it’s just because she was Mistress of Novices and I’m disdainful of the use of corporeal punishment in the White Tower (and in The Wheel of Time in general, but that’s a conversation for a different post). It might also be because of how oddly she behaved with the gray men in the Tower, and how the corpse of one was found in her bed. It seemed too specific, too intimate to be a coincidence. In any case, she seems to have taken a position of authority here, though she shook her head when Myrelle suggested her for Amyrlin.
She’s someone to watch, in any case, and I’m super curious about what Min’s viewing means. It seemed a little similar to the viewing of Logain, although Sheriam’s halo is more silver and blue than gold and blue.
I like Myrelle a lot, and was happy to see Anaiya again. I like the spirit of the Greens, and it makes sense to me that Egwene feels an affiliation with the Greens even outside of the obvious—that she knows the Last Battle is coming in her lifetime. There is a passion about the Greens that borders on mischief, and they are more fun than the other Aes Sedai. I mean, Myrelle’s Warder winked at her, in front of all those other Aes Sedai in the middle of an important meeting. Can you imagine Lan doing that? I can’t.
I’m curious about the rumor that Myrelle has married several of her Warders. It seems like the kind of malicious slut-shaming that might follow an Aes Sedai woman who engaged with men the way the Greens do, and I could easily see, if Myrelle has a close relationship with her Warders, that people might suspect that she has sexual relationships with them as well, or is even married to more than one of them. Which, more power to her if any or all of those things are true! My only thought is that marriage seems redundant when one already has that kind of intimate Bond, especially if there are no religious or legal institutions that would officiate such a union.
But yeah, Greens. I mean, look at this excerpt of Siuan considering Aniya.
Siuan had never been able to understand why Moiraine liked the woman. Trying to get her to do anything she did not want to was like hitting a sack of feathers. She did not stand up to you, or argue; she just silently refused to move. Even the way she sat, with her hands folded, looked more like a woman waiting to knead dough than an Aes Sedai.
Are you kidding? That’s exactly the kind of woman Moiraine would like. But again, Siuan is thinking as someone with a job to do, for whom everyone else is a chess piece in the most important game ever. She’d probably love Anaiya too if they were just two women in the Tower.
Regarding slut-shaming in these chapters, I wasn’t sure how to read Min’s new opinion of Leane. It was unclear to me if she just isn’t intimidated because she has a new intimacy with Leane now, or because she looks down on Leane’s Domani ways. And maybe Min herself doesn’t know, since she’s a little curious to learn a few techniques, but also put off by the idea on a personal level. The fact that Siuan suggested that Leane’s techniques could be used on women as well as men just made me laugh. I mean, take away for a moment the suggestion that men can’t think as soon as they see a pair of boobs. What are you left with? The idea that people who have more power, intelligence, and authority (or at least think that they should) don’t like those with less telling them what to do, but might be more amenable to gentle suggestions and deference. Which isn’t a bad thing necessarily, but it can easily be taken too far. Leane’s Domani tricks are based on the idea that men are kind of stupid, but also on the idea that patriarchy won’t make room for women in other ways. And now we see the Aes Sedai dismiss Leane and Siuan’s experience and wisdom merely because they were Stilled.
And yes, losing one’s ability to channel does affect people’s will—we see how Logain is holding up these days, and he’s tougher than most—but Sheriam and the others don’t actually seem that concerned with it. They’re more worried about Siuan showing proper deference to her betters, now that she’s no more than a servant to be used… if she’s lucky.
On a more exciting note, we see Egwene moving one step closer to becoming Amyrlin Seat. Since we were forearmed with the knowledge that Egwene will become Amyrlin since her Accepted trials, I’ve seen a lot of traits emerge in her that showed how fit she would eventually be for that office. But I never suspected this. It makes sense that Siuan would choose her though—she wants Egwene for the role much in the same way she chose her to be one of her Black Ajah hunters. I’m quite amused that she thinks the new Hall will be able to use Egwene as a puppet, and that Siuan can manipulate both. To be fair, Siuan hasn’t seen how Egwene has walked the line between deference and rebellion with the Wise Ones, nor is she aware of all the parallels I’ve been drawing between the two of them, but she sure is in for a surprise if they really make Egwene their new Amyrlin. Also, I remembered that in Egwene’s future vision during her trials, she had never sworn the three oaths required to be raised to Aes Sedai. I guess now we know how that happens—I’m pretty sure those fleeing Elaida didn’t stop to grab the Oath Rod on their way out of the Tower. So they’ll have an Amyrlin who can lie, and who can use the One Power as a weapon. That’s going to be very interesting.
Also, isn’t it kind of silly, or at least naïve, that the Aes Sedai assume that some cultures out there don’t have any channelers amongst them, just because they haven’t seen them? Why should the Aiel be different than other nations?
Next week we move on to Chapters 28 and 29. First we’ll see how Gareth Bryne fares when he finally catches up to his quarry, only to find himself faced with the Aes Sedai’s request for his services. And then we’ll take a quick trip into Kadere’s head, which I’d rather we didn’t, but such is the nature of things. The Wheel, and Robert Jordan, weave as they will.
Shout out to the folks on Twitter who helped me remember when Perrin and Moiraine had that conversation about the nature of the Pattern, and I hope you all have a good week.
Sylas K Barret enjoyed the mention of Lord Agelmar this week, and hopes to see him again one day. Also he kind of forgot to talk about Min in this post, so he’ll have to do right by her in her next chapter. You rock Min, never stop wearing pants.
Really good insights on Siuan and how her own quest may have hardened her personality a bit. She’s ornery (and suffers many of the same faults the Aes Sedai do in general) but I also feel sorry for her in some ways – I just imagine she’s had a lonely, hard life that she may not have chosen otherwise. (I don’t actually recall what her feelings on being Amrylin were and if it’s something she had sought out, or just felt thrust into).
As a whole, I think the Aes Sedai are in some ways the worst flaws of the Jedi as well – a group of people that have a strange power and that ostensibly want to make sure it’s used responsibily, and want to use that power with the responsibility it entails to help others, but eventually get sucked into a heirarchy/arrogance/rigidity. But you’ve hit on their blind spots quite well too.
I think as regards to Min and Leane, I get the impression with Min at least some of it is her own conflict in that she finds herself wanting to be ‘attractive’, but then feeling embarrassed/self conscious about it.
Once again Randland isn’t patriarchal. If anything it tends to the Matriarchal and women talk about men as being stupider and more emotional than women and needing female direction. Lots of misandry.
Young and dumb men probably fall head over heels for Domani tricks. More experienced and intelligent men like Gareth recognize they’re being manipulated but enjoy the effect anyway.
Very nice and deep analysis, as always.
One point – Re Suian being overbearing and distant during her tenure as the Amrylin Seat, remember that she was by far the youngest Amrylin in centuries, and had to manage Sisters who were much more older and more experienced. I expect that forced her to keep private thoughts to herself in order to avoid the perception of weakness.
The funny thing about this chapter is the sheer amount of arrogance on display, but not just from the leadership council. Siuan herself is the worst offender, and this part shows how it’s an ongoing thing.
The stuff about Siuan’s leadership style suggests she saw herself as an administrator and director, rather than a political figure, who has to respond to a constituency and electorate. Siuan was pulled from the Amyrlin Seat in the big picture sense, that is, the reason why the Pattern used Rand to inspire Elaida to do it, because ultimately everything in Wheel of Time comes down to choices and agency. That’s why ta’veren shake up the Pattern, to randomize things and loose the bonds of society and other structures that constrain people, because those constraints are strangling the world and shackling humanity for the Shadow like a goat staked out to lure a predator, and Siuan, more than almost any other authority figure is enemy of choice and agency. She respects those things in no one else, recognizes no point of view but her own and trusts no competence but her own. She is ultimate platonic ideal of an Aes Sedai of the contemporary era, not what they should be, but what they are. Last book, Siuan was surprised that Elaida was one to propose a course of action she wanted, it’s only in hindsight that she realizes it was a natural thing for Elaida and the Red Ajah to want. She never considered that, because she does not consider other’s points of view.
As one example, Leane’s suggestion that Barrett calls a “slip-up”, adopting Siuan’s view of the matter. It’s only a slip-up according to Siuan’s control-freak mind. What I got is that Leane read the room, and decided it was a prime moment to say what she did. When Moiraine is convinced of something different from what Siuan thinks, she finds it easier to not tell her, rather than try to persuade her. Barrett points out that Leane’s skills are not just applicable to seducing or persuading men, but people in general (which is another reason why readers claiming that the narrative supports the gender essentialism that so many characters pay lip service to is so annoying. Jordan is not some hack who has characters suddenly have anachronistic or unsupported revelations that their whole culture’s view is just wrong, but he seeds in little things to show that men and women are, in fact, the same species; if you look for them, you will often see little things pop up that undermine a recent or imminent generalization about the opposite sex), but they require, as Leane has mentioned earlier, an understanding of your target. Leane can read people better than Siuan can. So rather than arguing for more flexibility in the script, she probably just agreed with Siuan during their planning and then did what she thought best in the moment. But Siuan doesn’t recognize anyone else’s judgment as valid but her own. Siuan decided, sight unseen, that THIS was how they were going to plant the seed. She had no idea to whom they would be presenting their plan. Even if she knew enough about Aes Sedai to assume some sort of leadership council, she would have no way of knowing who would have reached Salidar, let alone be on the council. That paltry amount of data as a basis for planning the precise, scripted approach to a pitch is insane. But discretion is only for Siuan to exercise, not those poor benighted souls who are not her.
And here she is arrogantly determined to control how the White Tower acts, despite all her failures to date! And note that lest people start jumping to conclusions that she’s on the right side, that she somehow knows best and is working against the sisters to run cover for Rand, she sells his location for a seat at the table! How will the Aes Sedai act on that information? Whom will they send to deal with Rand? Who cares! The important thing is that Siuan gets her hands back on the levers of power! And the sole criterion for selecting sisters to go deal with the Dragon Reborn, the most important person of the age, the indispensable figure, is how many warders the sisters have! Oh well, I am sure Kiruna and Bera will get along fine with Rand and any other Aes Sedai who might be there, not cause any friction or alienate the Dragon from the Aes Sedai, because you get a warder only for unlocking another level of diplomacy skills, so it will all be fine.
And Siuan is willing to sell out even more than the Dragon Reborn, who is just some stupid freak with hair on his chest, not all that important to any good daughter of the White Tower. She’ll destroy the Tower itself just to get her revenge! She’d rather do irreparable harm to the White Tower as long as she has some say in what’s going on and the woman she bears a grudge against is taken down! She outright lies about Elaida and the Reds! There is no justice to that! Barrett’s nonsensical formulation aside, as Amyrlin, Siuan is responsible for bad things that happened on her watch. Also, we don’t know what Elaida said, only Min’s interpretation of what was said, and since Siuan has had Min there for weeks looking for the Black Ajah, that’s what’s on her mind. But even if she’s right about the intended implications of what was said about Siuan, bear in mind, the Aes Sedai can’t lie. If they are saying things about Siuan, it’s because they believe them to be true. Unlike Siuan, who, let us not forget, did take an Oath, without conditions, to speak no word that is not true. Just because she is not compelled to keep the Oath does not make her any less of an oathbreaker and a liar and a slanderer.
And the lie is a transgression against the Aes Sedai she tells it to, because she is tricking them into actions they would not undertake if they knew what she does, all because she assumes that she has the right to determine the course of action and future of everyone associated with the White Tower. She does not have the right to determine the correct course for everyone, each person has the right and responsibility to do so for themselves, and she is stealing that away from them.
And the fact that they want Gareth Bryne to serve them means they are going to start a war on false premises. They are intending to kill people for a lie. Siuan isn’t fit to be Amyrlin, or to be a dogcatcher.
Preach.
Citation needed. This is a different world. Stop assuming there is a patriarchy here. The Domani are, like most in the Wheel of Time, a female-dominated culture. Their tricks are not for carving out some agency where they have none, they are for subverting the intentions of equals. And Domani men do it too, not that the issue has come up.
Also, Siuan’s selection of Egwene has nothing to do with the Black Ajah hunt. That was because they were available and \the only people she could reasonably be sure were not Black. Egwene is, as she thinks in this very chapter, someone she can control, who does not have an agenda that will take precedence over the one Siuan assigns her. As for that “haha, what a mistaken she’s making…” I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Of course it might be that thinking she can control a couple of Accepted better than sisters who might do things against her better judgment had something to do with picking the Wondergirls for the Hunt, but none of her subsequent actions bear that out. That was, from a Doylist perspective, a method to get them out of the Tower and reunited with the rest of the core group, and from a Watsonian perspective, doesn’t hold up very well. And that’s another thing that reflects badly on Siuan. It’s an insane order to give mere initiates, especially when you get a scope of the real problem of the Black Ajah, and it’s not a good way to train your three most promising initiates. The point of training novice and Accepted and most of the restrictions regarding them, as well as certain selection criteria, is to shape them into loyal Aes Sedai who put the Tower first. This is not an objectively good thing, but it is definitely in the interests of the Tower, from the point of view of the sisters. And Siuan is no reformer, so letting the Wondergirls slip the leash would just make problems down the road from the point of view of the “Tower uber alles” mentality to which she ascribes.
Again, this is predicated on some assumptions about the way the WoT culture works. Myrelle is in a position of authority in Salidar, so it’s not like this has held her back. It’s not slut-shaming, which is not really a thing done except with the rather puritanical mores of the Two Rivers. It’s just as likely the bemusement that she would bother with the aforementioned redundancy, if she was already bonded to them. It’s not even an important thing as far as most people are concerned, since it only occurs to Siuan as a random datum when she is mentally freaking out about the Warder’s report. She’s just been through a rather contentious discussion with Myrelle – if her private sexual practices were something that really mattered to anyone, it would have come up pejoratively earlier in the chapter.
@@.-@
Also, she would have been very inexperienced in Tower politics, and not privy to the political give-and-take, of different methods officials in the Tower use for persuasion and achieving consensus or building coalitions. She would never have had to do that as a sister or leader of her Ajah, and as far as a new sister knows, the Amyrlin commands and people obey. Hence what Anaiya says about Siuan’s bullying and pushing, as they see it, whereas Siuan entirely misses her point, that she failed to show respect downwards, thinking it a one-way street (and her upbringing in Tear, at the bottom of the social hierarchy would not have taught her anything different as a general principle). She thinks of herself as an absolute ruler, rather than a constitutional one, who has to respect the rights of others, so she didn’t ask or make concessions unless she had no other choice. That too is going to drive people away from you. Leane stopped being a friend when they donned their stoles, because to her PoV, that’s what Siuan wanted.
@5
I support your opinion that Siuan is very arrogant in her thinking and doesnt care for other peoples point of view. Howewer I think you are exaggerating just how awful she is. By example, you put enfasis on the fact that she lied. Lets be honest here, the oath to not lie real reason to exist is, at least in my opinion, to make it so that when they need to say something really important there is no room for doubt about it. Aes Sedai use it this way the least, especially between themselves. They conspire all the time and can trick each other just fine without breaking them. Im quite sure that most of them consider it a burden most of the time. And you talk about choice and the fact that she is taking that choice from those she lied to. Well, she also has a right to choose and she choose to lie, everibody those that when needed and she thinks it is for the best. She may be wrong but she doesnt act knowing this. And then the Aes Sedai believe her, wich is also a choice. Its their choice to not question if Siuan can lie, so they deserve to be lied to. Siuan gives away the location of Rand for a way to influence things. The value of said information was almost nill, after all he is allready returning. And what should she do? Trust that they are going to do the right thing by themselves? Thats stupidity. She thinks she is the only one in there that can think so not trying to get a way to influence where things are going would mean avoiding her responsability to make sure things end up right.
In other words, Siuan just has an extreme case of arrogance. But she also has a great sense of responsability. That is way she seeks power, because she thinks she is the only one who can be trusted to wield it. If you cansider that one fault, then everything she does is just logical.
By the way, sorry for any misspellings. English is not my first language
Keep in mind that the AS in Salidar are basically spinning their wheels and even considering going back to Elaida. Under those circs you can’t entirely blame Siuan for thinking they need a kick in the pants and administering it. Siuan and Leane have personal reasons for hating Elaida’s guts but the Reds also present a clear and present danger to the Dragon Reborn and a bar to reuniting the tower. Remember they are persecuting the Blues. Also it is important to destroy the Tower faction’s credibility so there are lots of reasons beyond a mere thirst for power to spread Siuan’s lie. And the AS do need to make contact with Rand. Siuan certainly doesn’t think he should be running around loose but she also knows Moiraine is with him and trusts her to handle the Salidar messengers.
I thought Jordan had already retconned the no-sweating trick by this book, but I guess that comes later?
Siuan
Siuan is Blue, she is too busy ruling the world to bother with men. That is why she sees Myrelle’s many husbands critically, Blues think their causes are more important than wasting time on relationships.
Eg is still one of the few AS Siuan can trust not to be Black (unlike Sheriam).
Siuan was in a similar position to Ny as a very young Amyrlin and reacts similarly, trying to force people to obey her.
@7
“She may be wrong but she doesnt act knowing this.”
As the linguistic issue goes, I am not 100% sure what you mean here. Do you mean that Siuan is giving her honest opinion in good faith when she speaks to the Aes Sedai? Or do you mean she is doing what she thinks to be the best course of action? I would assume the latter, but in the context of what you say about lying, I thought it might be about what she says. And we know for a fact that she knows she is lying to the sisters about Logain and the Red Ajah and taking advantage of their assumption that the Oath still holds.
“Well, she also has a right to choose and she choose to lie,”
This sounds like you are saying her choice to do something wrong is valid because of free will, which is not true. Her right to swing her fist ends where another’s face begins. You do not have the right to lie, especially about other people and especially when you know there will be serious consequences if your lie is believed. She is not in trouble, being compelled to give an account by people who have no business demanding information from her. She went to them. She sought them out, going to considerable trouble, confronted them and wants something from them. Her lie is not defensible. What’s more, she is supposed to be on their side, she is supposed to be their sister and she is approaching them with the full knowledge that they believe she is on their side and bound to speak the truth. She is taking gross advantage of them.
Other than that, you are absolutely right about the point of the Oaths. I believe that is true of all of the Oaths, that they do not impede the sisters in their dealings with normal people to any significant degree, and hardly protect anyone aside from the Tower itself and the collective Aes Sedai, while being only a minor inconvenience to the individual sisters restricted by them, They were enacted for the benefit of the Tower, not the rest of the world.
That being said, Siuan still swore an oath. However self-serving the reasons for the oath do not matter. In a society where oaths are taken seriously enough that they can change one’s punishment or condition of servitude, they are a serious thing and Siuan foreshadows her crimes in Salidar by taking advantage of that convention to violate Bryne’s trust. She and her companions trespassed on private property and caused rather serious damage. Bear in mind there is a drought on, and those losses will not be easy to replace. Bryne covered the cost of their actions, Siuan gave, and induced her companions to give, an extreme oath counting on his trusting them to carry it out and repay what he did for them, while having no intention of keeping it, beyond a vague assertion that she would in some unspecified time in the future, which was by no means assured, given the circumstances into which she is plunging herself.
But Siuan really doesn’t care about anyone that she can’t use for her own power. The very real harm she did prior to the start of the book should not be overlooked because her victims are unpleasant people, nor should her actions get a pass because of the increasingly obvious flaws and personal shortcomings of the Aes Sedai she lies to. It’s not like she’s doing this to break the Tower because she’s opposed to all the wrong it has done, or is trying to prevent them from doing harm to the Dragon. No, Siuan believes in the cause of the Tower, the supremacy of the Aes Sedai and thinks the Tower is the best hope for the world…and she is swinging an axe at its foundations for a purely personal ambition and vendetta!
“Its their choice to not question if Siuan can lie, so they deserve to be lied to.”
Yeah, no. That’s victim blaming. It’s like exonerating a murderer or robber, because their victim lowered their defenses! Crimes against people who trust you are generally considered more morally reprehensible, not less!
“But she also has a great sense of responsability.”
Rand feels responsible for the Maidens. So by this reckoning, he is right to keep them from battle. This is not a coincidence that these two characters confront this same issue in this book. Contrary to the impressions of certain less than astute ghostwriters, very often in Wheel of Time, characters in different geographical locations have parallels with other characters in the same book. Almost like Jordan was addressing themes in a particular story. A major theme of The Fires of Heaven is arrogance and usurpation of choice and agency, of people thinking they know best and presuming to take choices away from others. We get it in Elaida’s opening meeting where a bunch of clueless people are discussing the world and issues they lack the readers’ knowledge of, as if they have the right to decide their disposition. We get it in Morgase having her agency stolen by Rahvin’s compulsion, we get it with Egwene terrorizing Nynaeve, with Moiraine finally being forced to surrender her control over Rand’s destiny. We get it in Asmodean’s comments on his own helplessness, and Aviendha’s backgrounded struggle against her fate, and Mat’s struggles with the other end of responsibility even as his girlfriend attempt to make him pursue glory and honor. Looking forward, we have a Warder bond beginning and another ending, and both Warders having to deal with others attempting to take responsibility for their fates. It’s a whole big theme of the book, that feeling responsible does not give you the right to decide for others.
“That is way she seeks power, because she thinks she is the only one who can be trusted to wield it. If you cansider that one fault, then everything she does is just logical.”
Well, yeah. I am not accusing her of inconsistency or general hypocrisy (though in regard to Elaida, she is absolutely being a hypocrite), but of doing something wrong. That initial false premise does not grant her good faith, not least because it’s an extraordinary assumption to jump to! Siuan is a mere 20 years into a career that can reasonably be expected to last 300. She is practically a tyro, who has no business leaping to the assumption that she is the only competent person. That assumption would justify any act of tyranny, on the grounds that said tyrant thinks he knows better.
Mods, it seems like Sylas thinks that Anaiya is Green Ajah:
Can someone please make sure that Sylas knows that Anaiya is Blue?
@9
“Siuan and Leane have personal reasons for hating Elaida’s guts”
That’s why people with personal reasons are not supposed to be making important decisions.
“but the Reds also present a clear and present danger to the Dragon Reborn and a bar to reuniting the tower. Remember they are persecuting the Blues.”
How so? The last we heard from the Tower Elaida was offering a blanket amnesty. There is no persecution and considering the Blues attempted to overturn an election with an armed coup, some persecution might be considered justified. Ronde Macura repeated a verbatim message telling the sisters, and expressly those who fled, “all is forgiven”. Preventing a unification is not necessarily good. By deserting the Tower, the Blues and friends are removing the opposition to Elaida’s actions. Now there are NO opposing votes in the Hall, and all the sisters who might be inclined to pull Elaida down for any mistakes she makes going forward are no longer participating in the political process.
And by raising an army against Elaida, they basically force anyone involved in Tower politics to choose sides, and opposing Elaida from within the Tower suddenly looks like you’re in league with the traitors. The Hall won’t even consider removing Elaida, no matter what her crimes, as long as the rebels are in arms against the Tower, because it looks like they are conceding to the people who are trying to use force to resolve the political issue. They cannot allow that to happen, because it sets a precedent. Anytime a large minority does not get what it wants, they can always run off and raise an army, because, Hey, it worked for the Salidar rebels that time. Once the rebels turn to force to resolve a political dispute, the loyalists cannot allow them to win in any way.
But if they swallow their pride and come back, perhaps after negotiating some concessions (if Elaida won’t give any, they at least look like the grownups, while Elaida seems like the obdurate one) then when she starts going off the rails, they will be in position to do something about it. Also, by making their own Hall and Sitters, they insult the Sitters who remain in the Tower by claiming their positions, again, making them less likely to check her or depose her. Even if you want to claim some legal technicality invalidates Elaida’s election (according to sisters with far more experience than Siuan, from loyalist, rebel and neutral camps, she is the lawful Amyrlin), what did the Sitters do that suddenly makes them false Sitters and the Hall a false Hall?
“Also it is important to destroy the Tower faction’s credibility so there are lots of reasons beyond a mere thirst for power to spread Siuan’s lie.”
Why is it important to destroy their credibility? From the perspective of someone who thinks the Aes Sedai in general have too much influence on the rest of the world, yeah. But that’s not Siuan and the Salidar faction. Destroying their reputation unjustly only makes reunification harder. But what, exactly do they know or think they know Elaida and her followers (bear in mind, many of those in the “Tower faction” are guilty of nothing more than obeying Tower law and following the lawfully elected Amyrlin, as even the Salidar council directly admits Elaida is, in this very chapter) will do with that credibility that must be stopped? What lies, what harm are they going to do? The only disasters, the only harm they really believe might come, is that something may be done that is different than what they might have. Again, remember, Siuan was expecting opposition from the Reds back when she held the Amyrlin Seat, and was surprised when Elaida proposed something Siuan wanted, that she realized in hindsight was perfectly natural for a Red to want. So there we have two points – 1. Siuan is not the best predictor of the Red agenda or priorities and 2. Siuan’s policies are perhaps not nearly as different from Elaida’s as she would contend.
From a spoilerish perspective, we will see that this idea of the Reds in general being untrustworthy with regard to Rand is actually incorrect.
“And the AS do need to make contact with Rand. Siuan certainly doesn’t think he should be running around loose but she also knows Moiraine is with him and trusts her to handle the Salidar messengers.” Yeah, but my point was, giving that information proves she is not on Rand’s side. She thinks she knows what’s best for him, but that’s a huge thing in this book, people wrongly thinking that they know what’s best for others.
Personal anecdote. I worked for several years at a chain pharmacy. I was a supervisor and discovered on the manager’s computer, the processing program for company memos. So for a prank, I wrote up a memo describing a new policy of rationing toilet paper in the employee bathroom, limiting the number of rolls per month, and recommending a limited number of squares per wipe, while conceding an extra roll for February in leap years. Basically nonsensical stuff, right? The joke was to make the usual tone of corporate directives seem silly by close comparison. The new employees laughed when they read it. My younger brother came in to work later and said “Bill must have done this.” But the three employees who had been there longer than I believed it. My manager believed it until he saw the humorous name signed at the bottom. The manager of the Hallmark Cards aisle, who had been with the company as long as I’d been alive vowed that she would go home to use the bathroom instead, and stormed out of the store ranting about the insane things the company was making us do, before I could. It said something about the company I worked for that my utterly ludicrous scenario was believed only by the people who knew the company best. People who only worked there a few months, who had a normal perspective didn’t believe it for a minute. People with lots of experience with the company really DID think it was something our corporate overlords would do.
I say all of this remembering how Siuan, who has only worn the shawl 19 years at the time is outraged when Rand suggests the Tower manipulates and uses false dragons. But she comes to Salidar basically saying the exact same thing, and Morvin, who is characterized as skeptical, but has been a sister for 191 years believes the story. Anaiya, who has been a sister for 101 years, believes the story. In fact, no one in Salidar doubts her. Relatively new Siuan believes Aes Sedai using False Dragons is unthinkable. Morvin and Anaiya, after a century of watching the Aes Sedai in action think “Yeah, that’s plausible.” Even if they believe Siuan can’t lie, you’d think they would question whether or not Logain was telling her the truth, but apparently, it’s not nearly as impossible a thing as Siuan seemed to believe in her audience chamber in Fal Dara.
Ecrasez l’infame.
@15
You made me laugh with that story, and i love the parallel with Siuan.
She is doing what she thinks to be the best course of action is what i meant in my post. Sorry for the confusion.
I take back what i said about the Aes Sedai deserving to be lied to because they belived her. I reflected on it a bit more. The thing is that when they were being lied to and the belived it, that is what i tought. But now i see that it was only because i found it funny that the Aes Sedai were being manipulated instead of the other way around.
Howewer i still defend her right to lie. From her point of view the choice wasnt to either lie or not to lie to people who trusted her. It was to either not lie and let the Aes Sedai do something (in her opinion) disastrous, or to lie to them and avoid it. I am not judging her based on her actions and results, but on her intentions. We cant expect people to have perfect foresight. Dont misunderstand, i agree with you that by doing that she is causing more harm than good and all the reasoning of how dividing the white tower is bad. (If i were to judge her on results, she would already be burning on a stake.)
About oaths. Let me first make clear that this is just a personal opinion and that i dont expect people to agree with me. I try to avoid asking people to make oaths or promises to me or to ask them from me. that is because I expect peoples priorities to change with the circumstances. That is why i cant trust oaths or promises and i am always prepared for them to be broken. This comes also from the understanding that i would probably break a promise under the right circumstances. that is way i seem to not think to bad of Siuan when she breaks her oath. I know this isnt how the society of The Wheel of Time works. Howewer we are talking of an (former) Aes Sedai. That is like a diferent society altoguether, one that encourages manipulation and scheming and wich only has one reason to not lie. And a magical reason at that. The value the Aes sedai put on oaths is, i belive, diferent and much lesser than that of the rest of the world (that we know of in the books).
@5, 12, etc.
I agree with you that Siuan has alot of pride / arrogance, but that’s to be expected. Aes Sedai are used to running the world. The strongest of them have enough power to nearly take on an army by themselves and you don’t go through their entire training process without having some kind of arrogance. The same is true of the Wise Ones however, and the Windfinders when we see them.
I don’t feel like your view of her motives is entirely correct. Her entire experience dealing with Aes Sedai is shaded by the fact that the Black Ajah is real and she has no idea who they are. As we find out later, they took out several of the most powerful people in the tower just because they knew about the Dragon Reborn. She’s never been able to have the same leadership style as the Wise Ones (for example) because anyone she could work with (besides Moiraine) could be waiting to murder her after a single slip up. And none of the Aes Sedai running things in Salidar are willing to even admit the Black Ajah exists. On top of that, she now knows that the Forsaken are back and they’re likely behind alot of the manipulations that led to the tower being split.
Siuan isn’t like this solely because of some misguided arrogance, but because there is literally no one else that she trusts to run things because any of them could be working for the Dark One. Perhaps if she had been willing to take a chance and bring others into knowledge about the Dragon Reborn, etc., years ago, that may have been different, but that’s also what got the Amyrlin killed at the time, and she’s never been willing to take that chance.
As far as her decision to lie, manipulate, etc., it is partially due to trust issues and partially due to the laser focus the Blue Ajah seems to have towards any of their goals. Moiraine said in book 1 she would have killed any of the Super Boys if she thought it was justified, but somehow lying to people who may (and in fact are) working as double agents for the Dark One is beyond the pale for you. It strikes me as a bit unfair, but then again, that’s one of the things that makes WoT enjoyable: characters that feel like real people even if you don’t always like those people.
@13 – Can’t blame someone too much for mixing up a few Ajahs… the memory refreshes eventually, but it’s a steep learning curve every time you jump back into the Tower after a while away.
and @4-9 – Though @William may have covered this and I missed it in the skim, I think one of the recurrent themes that I’m most surprised Sylas didn’t pick up and comment on, especially on the tail of all the Egwene/Nynaeve stuff going on, are the challenges of even exceptional young people coming into power, and the how they need to cope with developing actual authority out of that.
Some of that is individual, and there’s a reason Siuan and Nynaeve strike sparks every time they get near each other… they both came into power young, inexperienced, unsupported, surviving through sheer tenacity and stubbornness occasionally verging into outright bullying. Both with a humble background that led to a broad-based competence in addition to their narrower specialized focus, certainly. But it’s unsurprising that the most formative aspect of the experience was the need to assert leadership authority over the women around them, who, Aes Sedai or farmwife, seem uniquely skilled at backhandedly acknowledging the authority someone’s position should be due while undercutting said authority to their face, because their face looks young. Aes Sedai even throw in the idiotic “muscle-brained” strength hierarchy into the mix to muddy the waters further. Add in a blunt nature and a short temper, and you get someone who coped by developing a domineering style. The singular nature of each of their particular passions also causes friction (probably the main Blue Ajah flaw in particular, and a major flaw of Ajahs generally), since it leads to a particularly insular understanding of a subject in which they have few or no peers, and so the particular pursuit of it tends to be, at best, a mystery to those around them… so natural allies/partners are hard to develop. At worst they are, correctly or incorrectly, assumed to be harmful to someone else’s interests and actively opposed.
Contrast this with Egwene’s eventual leadership style, developed by exploring a broad curiosity, frequently outstripped on an individual level even in areas that are her relative specialties, and then forged by an apprenticeship under the aggressively meritocratic Wise Ones. Aiel will give someone new the benefit of the doubt on borrowed/positional authority for about two seconds… even Chiefhood among them seems to be, at a practical level and historical/magical background aside, mostly about the strictly martial necessity of an unambiguous “hand to guide the spear,” and even that comes with strict control under the Wise Ones… it’s only literally apocalyptic circumstances that allow the Shaido debacle to stretch the breaking point so frustratingly far.
What really gets to the heart of that meritocracy though, a system with what always reads to me as a deeply tribal flair that serves in general to hit people down in the primal parts of the brain, is understanding reputation as being a social currency built on story. It’s a realization that Cadsuane, Moiraine, and eventually Egwene use to great effect to shortcut the Aes Sedai hierarchy wherever convenient, that Cadsuane quite dramatically uses to break Rand out of a cell and eventually even break one of the Forsaken. The true mastery of it that you see come through in their POVs, the real heart of daes dae’mar that tends to get lost among the flashier forgery, dissembling, and statecraft, is the deft navigation of leaving everyone with a story to tell that somehow enhances your reputation. Which does seem to occasionally mean a blunt show of force, of course… but more often requires an approach with greater flexibility, one where you’re assessing others’ aims as well and on the lookout for opportunities to give someone else a critical win, even if it’s nominally at your expense, in pursuit of a reputation that goes above and beyond the lesser constraints of any imposed hierarchy.
Most people will fit into a chain of command, assuming the person at the top can keep it reasonably functional… but a story inspires. There’s real power in crafting a story that makes people feel like a part of something significant. Those are the stories that carry someone to glory and then into eternity.
@14 – Worth pointing out that Elaida did eventually decree the abolition of the Blue, and was going to require her own particularly wrathful brand of hazing imposed upon every sister returning to the tower before being readmitted to their positions. Of course, it’s also pretty clear that Siuan’s approach, while it was a savvy and effective use of the tools then at her disposal to finally bait the Salidar crowd into action, was never going to lead to a reconciled tower. No endgame, played reasonably straight off her tee-up, likely ends up anywhere but a standoff between Abolish-the-Red vs Abolish-the-Blue and ultimately a shattering and scattering of the Aes Sedai as an organization… factions of channelers tipping over into open war tends to lead to the destruction of cities more often than not, after all.
I’m actually not okay with Siuan’s Red Ajah lie and never have been, I just see why she thought it was a good idea. Clearly Siuan doesn’t consider reconciliation either possible or desirable and of course neither does Elaida! Both are thinking in terms of eliminating the other faction.
Surrendering to Elaida would have been an incredibly Bad Idea. As we will learn she is a disaster as Amyrlin and gets steadily worse over her short administration.
The idea that the AS used the false dragons originally comes from Ishy. He told the ta’veren boys about it, who first told Thom about it, later also Moiraine and Rand mentioned it to Siuan/Moiraine/Verin in Fal Dara.
Sylas really needs to be disabused of the notion that this is a patriarchal world, otherwise later scenes in Altara and (especially) Far Madding make no sense. I suppose there are some places that are patriarchal, I guess there is a spectrum of patriarchal to matriarchal, but most nations fall on the side of matriarchal Just off the top of my head (from P to M): Amadacia (Whitecloaks), Tear, Illian, Cairhien, Borderland Nations, Arad Doman, Andor, Altara, Far Madding, Tar Valon . The Aiel would fall somewhere in the middle, the Sea Folk are probably between Andor and Altara. Tarabon had fallen too far into chaos when we see it to know exactly where it falls and I just don’t know much about Ghealdan and Murandy. Shara seems pretty female dominated, from what we finally see.
I get so amused by the way most readers freak out about ‘corporal punishment’ and casual physical ‘abuse’ in WoT. The simple fact is that such things were the norm throughout human civilization until about the last 30-40 years. Our behavior is the unusual, not theirs. Not trying to argue right or wrong, just pointing out that your point of view is showing.
@16
But committing any kind of violation against someone can then be excused with “I thought they were going to do something bad.” It’s why every riot-inciting police-committed homicide took place. You have to respect people’s freedom to act as they wish so long as they are not doing direct harm. The same reasoning by which we can understand and contextualize Siuan’s actions, is something she herself denies the Aes Sedai.
Your stance on oaths is a very good and consistent one. Pretty sure it’s even in line with the Bible.
The Aes Sedai being their own society is part of the problem. It would be fine if they kept it within the walls of the White Tower, but they turn around and control the rest of the world, while holding themselves to different standards and playing by different rules. Those who aspire to a position of inherent supremacy should have more stringent rules, and higher standards, not less and lower. Gawyn and Gareth never agreed to play by those rules, anyway. Part of the reason why Aes Sedai engage in such extremes of deception is that they have the Three Oaths to fall back on, a moral crutch as it were. They can always call an end to the subterfuges and games by speaking the truth straight out. It doesn’t justify SIuan cutting loose of that tether entirely.
@17
“Her entire experience dealing with Aes Sedai is shaded by the fact that the Black Ajah is real and she has no idea who they are.”
Keep that in mind when she says what she says in A Crown of Swords when they are beginning their blackmail of Sheriam and her council. That is exactly the motive for the Salidar council hiding their infiltrator-operation from the Hall, which Siuan extrapolates and threatens to present to the Hall. She’s a massive hypocrite.
@18
An excellent and fascinating notion. Food for extensive thought. I would argue though that Nynaeve and Siuan are complete opposites in one respect – Nynaeve is roughly analogous to a libertarian, while Siuan is an authoritarian. Siuan wants to control everything because she has no respect for other people’s agency. Nynaeve takes leadership, because she gets frustrated at people not doing what seems obvious to her. Nynaeve has high standards people often disappoint, while Siuan has low expectations that often have her caught flat-footed, such as with Elaida’s coup or the Wondergirls eventually subverting her Salidar agenda for their own. But the STORY concept you exposit is exactly why Siuan falls into line and why so many Aes Sedai accept Egwene’s strictly arbitrary wins and roll with them. Because they prefer the Story that they were defeated by a master, that they were subordinated to someone who belongs in charge, to the notion that they were embarrassed by a tyro. They prefer the Story of their new Amyrlin being a prodigy than the fact that they have been critically underestimating Siuan all this time. But that also sustains Egwene in her captivity, but giving her that story to believe, and also to grow into it away from the unworthy machinations and tutelage of Siuan. That Story concept is a factor in Kadere’s upcoming PoV chapter, too.
@19
But Elaida will not abolish the Blues in a vacuum. She does so after the entire Blue Ajah. meeting in the birthplace of the woman who pulled down the last Red Amyrlin, slandered her and the Red Ajah, violated the Tower practice of solidarity by spreading their dirty laundry for outsiders and raised an army to overturn Elaida’s raising by force of arms. Under a Great Captain to whom they gave Oath Rod backed promises to see the campaign through to the end. At some point, there is a natural expiration for tolerance. At the least, the Blues are collectively impugning the whole Ajah (a plurality of all Aes Sedai) for the unproven actions of what may be only a few. Whereas Elaida is abolishing the Blue Ajah, because every single Blue is complicit in treason and armed rebellion against the White Tower. That’s not a persecuted minority, that’s a criminal conspiracy.
@20
But how much of her actions could have been stopped if there was a full Hall, representing the whole Tower, with sisters inclined to check her? How much more willing would the reasonable Sitters like Saerin, Seaine, Yukiri and Doseine be to pull her down, if there was no armed rebellion besieging Tar Valon that they would be vindicating by acting against the rebels’ target.
Hey friends! Sorry no post this week. Life, uh, got in the way. Can’t wait for next week, everyone stay safe and well!
Hope you’re doing well Sylas!